The AfghansSpeak (Part 2 Final) A World Exclusive Interview
"...if they could not give us asylum here, we would be happy to behanded over to the UN"

The three Afgahanistanmen here seeking refugee status, have been the centre of attentionin the Cayman Islands since the 11 September terrorist attackson the United States which blames groups operating out of thatcountry.

The reason for Afghans coming under the limelight here was a combinationof their nationality and a letter written by a Caymanian whichwas sent to Radio Cayman on 30 August forecasting the disastrousevents in America, while casting suspision on them.

Authorities subsequently took them into 'protective custody' andthey were freed by an Appeal Court three weeks ago. This is thesecond time the Afghans: Nek Nazar Nazary; Mohammad Raza Hussani;and Ali Sha Yusufi, have been the subject of public attention.

They became the focus of attention 14 months ago, having appearedin the Cayman Islands with no personal or immigration documentation.After one month of detention they were determined to be Afghans,by a principal to the Afganistan delegation in the United Nationsin New York, a Farsi speaking Chief Immigation Officer from theUK and resident Pakistanis. A successful writ for Habeas Corpusset them free and confirmed their identity and fear of persecution,until the events of 11 September.

The following is the second and final segment (originally scheduledfor a three part series) of the exclusive worldwide interviewgranted to Cayman Net News with the men.

Nek is the most fluent in English and he fielded questions onbehalf of the trio. His responses to questions are published almostverbatim, except in cases where there was repetition. The interviewis published in this format, so readers can judge for themselvesthe story as told in the Afghans' own words.

In the previous edition of Cayman Net News, the Afghans gave someinsight into racial differences of the country and historicalreasons for their dislike of the Taliban.

Cayman Net News: You said your parents were into education. Werethey educators?
NEK: No, they are educated. I mean, comparing our areas to allparts of Afghanistan, our areas are good in education. Peopleare serious. They know the importance of education. Suppose ifyou compare our area with a Pashtoon area. They are so ignorantabout it. Even when an aid agency from outside tries to open aschool in Pashtoon area, they will oppose it. But in our areasit is not so. Although sometime the foreign organization, theyhelp with our schools but many times there's no aid for our school.Our people themselves, they put money together, whatever theycan. They run the schools. They are not going to let the schoolsstop. They want to educate their children.

CNN: Education under the Taliban consistsof a religious educator, a mullah?
NEK: Mullah.

CNN: Your educators are not mullahs?
NEK: No. Our system, are schools like you have. We are studyingEnglish. We are studying biology. We are studying physics andchemistry and mathematics. All those things. It was not religious.

CNN: And is that a big difference?
NEK: Yes, this is a big difference.

CNN: So education under the Taliban is religiousand yours is not?
NEK: Yes. They are religious. We are Muslims but different fromTaliban. Taliban, I would say, they are Sunni Muslims but in Sunnisection there is a new movement for the past about one centurywhich is called Wahabi. And bin Laden and Taliban, they are thefollowers of Wahabi movement. This movement is a very very fanaticand extremist movement. They are very different from real Sunnies.They have totally misinterpreted the religion. And our sectionof Islam is called Shia. We are totally different from them.

CNN: Can you give examples?
NEK: Yes. We pray in different ways. In Islam, there are somesort of religious taxes. We pay our religious taxes in a differentway. They pay their taxes in another way.

CNN: Do you have different beliefs?
NEK: Yes.

CNN: Do you interpret the Koran differently?

NEK: No. Koran is the same. The main differencestarts from after the death of prophet Mohammad. So, we believein Ali and eleven other Imams following him, he was supposed tobe the first caliph.

CNN: He was the son?
NEK: No, he was the son-in-law. And he was also the son of hisuncle. So he was supposed to be the first caliph following Mohammad.But it did not happen so some other guys took it over who arestill respectable. So these are some of the differences, fundamentaldifferences. From there, there are a lot of differences. In prayersand other practices.

CNN: The rights of Muslim women?
NEK:: Uh, basically in women's rights there's not much difference(between Sunni and Shia). But now, the Wahabi movement, they aretotally restricting women to house. They really give no placewomen in the society. No women can come out alone. They shouldbe accompanied by a male family member. Education is impossible.You can't have any education or institution for women. We hada lot of girls' schools in Afghanistan. Women used to go to universitiesand colleges but since arrival of Taliban all these things arebanned. No woman can go. No woman can educate themselves.

(His colleague speaks Nek translates)

My friend is saying even women are not allowed to walk properly.Once, there was a Taliban soldier standing there. Woman was coming.So this Tali shouted from a long way, "Don't come close.Pass on the other side. I don't want to hear your footfalls."These are one of simple things. As you can see on the TV, theybeat women all the time. For no sensible reasons.

Some of the things, really, I must indicate here, we cannot practiceunder Taliban rule. For example, women cannot go to school. One.Like, sometimes, they must come out in total cover. Men cannotshave (rubs his smooth, shaven chin). We cannot have hairstylesthat we want. There is no music allowed or television. There aremany games that you cannot play. First even, they had banned football.Then they allowed football but you could only play in long trousers.They would not allow you to wear shorts when you play football.No photograph is allowed. You cannot have photographs.

I am an artist now. An amateur artist. I could not practice thisat all in Afghanistan. I would never be allowed to draw my sisters.I feel very much free and happy now. I draw pictures for my friends.I would never do this in Afghanistan. Like, even, you cannot weighyourself. Like, if you go to doctor, you cannot weigh how muchkilograms or pounds you weigh.

CNN: Nothing!

NEK: This is not allowed. This is a crime.(laughing) Can you imagine?
(colleague speaks and Nek translates)
As my friend is saying. In some cars or trucks, they have pictureson it, from you know, past times. They had some pictures of artworkon them.
So now, the traffic police. They have the paint. Whenever theycatch such a car, they are going to paint over it.

CNN: You have brothers and sisters.
NEK: Yes. I have.

CNN: And they are all in Afghanistan now?
NEK: Yes. My whole family.

CNN: But you were heading for Canada. Isthat extended family there.
NEK: My cousin.

CNN: And your two colleagues?
NEK: Yes we have a lot of relatives in Canada and the USA. Andthey have been living there for much more than 10 years.

CNN: Were you involved in any way with eventsof 11 September?

NEK: My answer is definitely negative.

CNN: You were not?
NEK: Yes.

CNN: And your colleagues?
NEK: My colleagues would also say not. Our biggest proof, evidence,is because today we are free. After a very very big investigation.

CNN: Our local authorities investigated?
NEK:: Yes, definitely as you know, the first part of the investigationwas by the Cayman Islands Government. And later they called embassyofficials of United States from Jamaica.
Then they also called officials of FBI. Came here. We did reallyour best cooperation that we could. We were not even unhappy aboutbeing detained.

We did our cooperation as best as we could. We allowed our attorneysto give them all our records, all our interviews, all our contactnumbers of relatives in US and Canada. All of the informationthat was there we provided them. And we also insisted and wouldbe very happy and would be a great pleasure to see them, to cometo them.
I think they did not feel the need to speak to us. And after sometime, I don't exactly know, maybe it was in late September whenthey were checking our records, checking our people that werein Canada and USA. So they finally get their response and there'sno such sort of connection.

CNN: So when you were cleared, how did you feel?
NEK: Going to prison is not a good feeling. We knew the situationthat had happened so we would respect all sorts of investigationsthat would happen, that the government or people felt necessaryto be done. And we were even confident about this and happy aboutthis, that this investigation will result in additional proofof our, that we are being persecuted by the Taliban and it willhelp our case for asylum. And it is proof.

CNN: So you were not bitter about beingheld under maximum detention for the second time?
NEK: I was not really unhappy.

CNN: The Northern Alliance is fighting theTaliban. Are you familiar with the alliance?
NEK: I know about this alliance. This alliance is formed, as Isaid in the beginning, by the three minority races. And a groupof Pashtoon people, there is a political party of Pashtoon people,also aligned with the northern alliance. Mainly there are fourgroups representing the three minority groups and another partfrom Pashtoon. They are in the Northern Alliance fighting againstTaliban.

CNN: Suppose the Taliban were deposed, wouldyou return to Afghanistan?
NEK: Well, it totally depends who takes over.

CNN: The Northern Alliance or the monarchy?
NEK: Being part of a Hazara ethnic group, I will not agree themonarchy's return. The King, he is himself a Pashtoon. He's aPashtoon-ist. He ruled our Afghanistan for about forty years.During this time, our people were really oppressed. I will notsay they were not given rights. They were even oppressed harder.And apart from that, he did nothing for Afghanistan. Nothing atall.

If someone had seen Kabul about 20 years ago, the capital of Afghanistan,he would tell you how it looked like. The only thing he did, theone thing the whole world knows that he did, it was a big castlethat he built in Rome. It is a big tourist attraction. And allthe things stolen from the museum and the money went from theAfghan government.

CNN: For his own aggrandizement.
NEK: Yes. And this whole period of revolution which is over decades,he has spent a peaceful life in his castle.

CNN: What is the population of Afghanistan?
NEK: Around 25 million.

CNN: The three of you look dissimilar. Isthat part of the problem, one particular group controls the wealth?Or is it more ideology?
NEK: It is mainly because of all these differences that I toldyou. One ethnic group, when it comes to power, wants to controlthe whole power forever.

And, the other thing is that all these ethnic groups for the pastyears that there has been a lot of violation of rights from onegroup to another. So now the confidence here is completely lost.All these four groups have no confidence in one another. Now thesegroups do not even know how to live together.

Cause there are so many differences. Sometimes I think, and mostof the people think this way, that Afghanistan should have beenfour countries.

CNN: Really?
NEK: Yes. Because the differences are so wide. They are so big.All the people think that before Russian revolution, Afghanistanwas a peaceful country. And it was not peaceful.

CNN: Were people ever emigrating in theother direction ­ from Pakistan to Afghanistan?

NEK: No.

CNN: Always in the one direction?
NEK: Yes. Only once it happened since the appearance of Taliban.That there are some Pashtoon ethnic groups that live on both sidesof the border. And some refugees of the same Pashtoon group thatleft during the Russian Revolution. So they entered Afghanistanin the form of Taliban.

CNN: I understand the Taliban started tryingto avenge the rape of some young women and they grew in popularity.
NEK: It was not really such. The appearance of Taliban was inthe way that, newly, when the states of the Soviet Union brokeup. So Pakistan sent a caravan of aid to Turkmenistan which isin the Northwest of Afghanistan. So this caravan was supposedto travel a long way from Pakistan border to the Northwest ofAfghanistan to Turkmenistan. As soon as it entered Afghanistan,Kandahar City, this caravan was looted by small group. And thiswas the time that Taliban people initially there were 1500 ofthem. So they directly entered into Afghanistan and started collectingthe looted aid.

And that was how the Taliban started. And it got a lot of back-upfrom our neighboring and Arabian countries. So it grew very big.Especially they came with a religious slogan. So, in Afghanistan,a lot of people are uneducated, so they are really tricked soeasily by this slogan and they joined the Taliban. So there thePashtoon ethnic group is so big. It's also one of the big reasonswhy they are so successful in military.

CNN: It is claimed that the Taliban arecontrolled by Osama bin Laden. Literally bought. Was the governmentso poor?
NEK: The first thing I must say is the Taliban is not the governmentor representative of the Afghanistan people. They are just a militarygroup. A group of ignorant people.

So they really needed, they needed money to capture all of Afghanistanand to defeat other minorities of other ethnic groups. But, theyare so ignorant they were bought by Osama bin Laden. I will giveyou one small example. As I said that in August 1998, there wasa mass killing of our people in the Northern city of Mazar-e-Sharif.The Taliban had also attacked this city in '97 but there weredefeated by the military groups which was there. After this defeat,bin Laden donated about five hundred Toyota trucks.

CNN: Five hundred?
NEK: Five hundred Toyotas just for the capture of this city andother military equipments. And these Toyota trucks in Afghanistannow they are more successful than tanks. So you can imagine fromhere how much help bin Laden has given to Taliban. Just five hundredToyota trucks to capture one city. He donated for Taliban andthey captured it and they killed our people so brutally.

CNN: How does the mis-perception that youand your colleagues are Afghanistans and are liable for what wenton in America on 11 September make you feel?
NEK: This incident really are so painful, they are so shocking.When people talk of terror, of thousands of lives lost there,it directly reminds me of thousands of lives, of tens of thousandsof lives that we have lost at the hand of Taliban. When they talkof the landmarks, the twin towers, landmarks of the United States,it reminds me that two giants statues of Buddha which were thesymbol of our existence in Bumiyan were destroyed by Taliban.It is really, it brings all the pains that we had in Afghanistanonce again to us. And it pains even more when we realize thatthousands of innocent lives are lost here.

CNN: If you are not granted political asylumin Cayman, where would you go?
NEK: In the very beginning when we came here we applied for politicalasylum here and the question also, if they could not give us asylumhere, we would be happy to be handed over to the United Nations.We would be happy if any country of the world could give us asylum.

CNN: Do you think that the authorities heremoved slowly to process your request?
NEK: Yes they moved slow, very slow. And the thing is the timing.We arrived here in August, 2000 and we got a lawyer in the Mayof 2001. The lawyer himself came to help and came to visit us.

CNN: You were not offered one?
NEK: We were not offered any lawyer.

CNN: What have the people of the CaymanIslands demonstrated to you?
NEK: Well, I know a lot of Caymanians here. I know a lot of otherpeople living on the island from other countries. The people thatI know, they are so friendly. They're really friendly.

CNN: But there's a suspicion that lingers?
NEK: The thing is, now, if one would ask me to judge the peopleof Cayman, I would judge them from the people I know. Really.The people are so good here. I do not complain at all that somepeople have been misled by some rumors. I will not judge Caymanfrom the point of view of such people.

CNN: The judiciary is an independent bodythat has freed you not once, but twice. But, the public is saying,why are you here and why are you still here.
NEK: Yes. And I believe they are the most sincere people, themost educated and the most knowledgeable people and they are appointedfor the best of the Cayman Islands. They decide matters what isbest for the Cayman Islands and its people. And now they havemade this decision that we are really in fear of persecution bythe Taliban and that any more, any further detention would notbe reasonable. I think it was for the best of the Cayman Islandsand people of the Cayman Islands must trust, they must respectand be confident that whatever decision is made, is the best.

CNN: We received an email asking, is theisland still safe? What message could you give visitors to assuagefears?
NEK: Well all visitors that come here from all over the worldand especially from United States, I would tell them that definitelyhere you have three Afghan people. These three Afghans are exactlyvictims of the same terrorism, of the same barbarism that youpeople are. I am very happy that people of the United States,although they are in war with Taliban and with their terroristfriends, but on the other hand they are showing their sympathy.They are saying they are also fighting this war on a humanitarianlevel also. So I can see that they have a lot of sympathy forinnocent people of Afghanistan and I have also have sympathy forinnocent people of the United States that were killed there andfor all those families. And I even appreciate their offensiveagainst terrorism. And I am telling you, you are safe here. Youhave friends here.

CNN: You have avoided being photographed.
NEK: Yes, exactly for my and my friends' safety reasons.

CNN: And do you still prefer not to showyour image?
NEK: The answer to this question of yours, I would say that weare not hidden really from the people. Like we have appeared incourt.

CNN: Right.
NEK: The judges have seen us. All the people from government haveseen us. They have heard all about our lives. They know abouteverything. We have provided them with all of our informationthat we had in our lives. So, here I would just request the peopleonce again to be confident of their judicial system and trustthem. What they have decided and what they have seen is true.

CNN: There is a rumor that you've been toflight school.
NEK: No. No. No.

CNN: There is also speculation about the people who have calledyou.
NEK: People have called me. I have my cousin in Canada. We havepeople, relatives in United States. They have called us. Thisshould not be misinterpreted. And all the telephone numbers, allthe contact numbers that we have, they were also provided, theywere shown before the courts. And the immigration office alsohas all those phone numbers and they are free to contact themat any time and ask any question they have.

CNN: What would you say to the people ofthe Cayman Islands to relieve their fears?
NEK: I have been really repeating this, that they must be veryconfident that the court decision is for their best. Really. Andit revealed something very much apparent and very clear. And thecourt was never going to decide on something that was againstnational security or against the interests of the people of theCayman Islands. They must be very confident about it. And askthose people who know us, especially the prison officers. Theyknow us very well. We spent a long time with them. They know usvery well. We are sorry, the media here, we are really unhappyabout it. They are using the word "mystery." There reallyis no mystery here. It is quite clear. Everything is clear. Wehave really good will for the people of the Cayman Islands. Forall the laws of the Cayman Islands.

CNN: There may always be suspicion.
NEK: One thing really and also I want to say to the people ofthe Cayman Islands. On one hand, I appreciate your dislike andhatred for the terrorist acts and the terrorist people. I alsoappreciate your sympathy for the victims of terrorism in USA orother places in the world. And they also must realize this thatthe three Afghans here today, they have come here for shelteramongst your people. They are victims of the same terrorists.

The Taliban and these terrorists have taken over our country.Bin Laden has taken over our country. Hazara people since 1994since the very appearance of Taliban. They tried to stop themin the first point. They tried to stop the Taliban to become adanger to Afghanistan and for the world.

They tried to but, I feel sorry that the world did not pay muchattention and did not help them. Now that it has happened thatwe have run away from our country. We are the first-hand victimsof these terrorists. I hope that people realize this. I'm surethey will.

CNN: Some people may have doubts about howyou got here, all three of you arriving together.
NEK: This is something, really, that people can't think. Now,you see, millions, millions of Afghanistan refugees, they areleaving the country. It is not a matter of hundreds. If it wasa few people leaving the country, you may think that it is notan accident. This is a very common thing. Millions of people areleaving the country every day and are seeking refuge in othercountries. And it always happen that one person from North andone person from West and one person from center, they get togetherand go to place. From neighboring country or from another country.You must keep in mind that millions of people are leaving at once.We have, right now we have about six million refugees.

CNN: As many as that?
NEK: As many as that. You have to think, your thoughts shouldbe, it's a fact. What happens if a volcano erupts? A small eruptionof the volcano. Of course it throws its lava and stones a smalldistance. What happens if there's a big eruption? Most of thestones have now been thrown quite far in different places. Andthis has exactly happened in Afghanistan. A very big eruption.Refugees are going all over the world. Australia is closer place.

Thousands of refugees are going there. And it's a farther place.Canada and the USA are farther. Less people get here. This ismatter of big eruption.

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